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neonvincentFor some reason, I wanted to write comments on zombies this month.
My comments to Men Unlike Gods.
Me: Steve T asked "On archetypes that emerge in the fantasies of a civilization– What do you make of the ridiculous popularity of the Army of the Dead/Zombie Apocalypse archetype?" That's a topic that popped up at least twice on the old blog. I saved the comment threads on the zombie apocalypse in two posts on my blog. I summarized most of the reasons in Zombies meet preppers on 'Fear the Walking Dead' Season 3: "the rural-urban disconnect, the fear of urban hordes ravaging the countryside, a lack of faith in progress, a not so subtle racism, and a desire to shoot their fellow Americans." I almost wonder if the producers and writers read those two blog entries of mine for inspiration.
Greer: Vince, thanks for this. I find zombies dreary beyond words, so am probably the last person to ask why they’re popular!
Me: You're welcome. You may find the American media conception of zombies boring, but I was converted years ago to paying attention to the phenomenon, enough that I have an entire category of posts devoted to the zombie apocalypse on my blog. Your readers seem to be interested in the topic, too. Just like the two other times I documented conversations in your comments section, once the subject came up, your readers ran with it. I am very tempted to respond to them, but I think I will learn more by reading (listening) than I will by typing (talking). In particular, the connections to poverty and famine are new ones to me. Instead, I will merely note that the person most responsible for the idea of the zombie apocalypse, George Romero, died on Sunday. May he rest in peace and not rise from the dead to eat us.
Greer: Vince, oh, I know. I just find them so very dull! I was amused by the response to George Romero’s passing, though. It was reminiscent of what happened when Christopher Lee died — I heard a lot of jokes about how he’d be back from the grave in no time flat, having done so all those times before…
Me: I can see why people would make those jokes about Christopher Lee, but my friends were hoping that his war record would finally be unsealed so they could find out all the operations against the Axis in which he participated. No such luck -- still a secret.
Changing the subject, all this talk of Wotan reminds me that he's been appearing in American popular entertainment first as Odin in the Marvel Thor movies and most recently as Mr. Wednesday in Neil Gaiman's "American Gods." The latter is more germane to the discussion here, as Mr. Wednesday is organizing the Old Gods (not the ones of Lovecraft) such as Anansi, Czernobog, Anubis, Thoth, Eostre, and Loki to fight the New Gods of Media, Technology, and The Market for supremacy. That might make for a useful metaphor. I expect that, as "an eccentric with a taste for old things" as well as someone seeking a nature-centered spirituality, you might sympathize with the Old Gods in their struggle against human creations turned into deities. On the other hand, the New Gods might just fade away when the civilization that supports them collapses.
Greer: Vincelamb, the old gods have seen all of this before. They’ve watched Roman emperors declare themselves divine and the Empire immortal, and smiled to see sheep grazing in a pasture that used to be the forum. The “new gods” are not gods but idols, empty images meant to reflect humanity’s supposed omnipotence back at us for our entertainment, and as they sit there grinning idiotically at the ruins of our civilization, the old gods will smile again and continue their timeless lordship…
Jason says:
July 20, 2017 at 5:16 pm
“Watch the dreams and fantasies of a society and you can catch the foreshadowings of its future…”
Regarding the popularity of the zombie genre, I’ve long thought it was due to the ease of life in modern america combined with the post-war morality that made it wrong to think of anyone as ‘the other'(except nazis I suppose). Jack Donovan wrote an essay that captured my thinking on it rather well.
http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2012/07/zompocalypse-now/
After reading this post though, and that painting from 1889… What if the popularity of the zombie genre has a much more straight forward meaning?
If america cracks up like Yugoslavia, which seems more and more inevitable as time goes on, and the fighting rages on for several years(which, considering how heavily armed we are thats more than possible*), that would cause a severe famine, and not just here in the states either.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the US is the top exporter of agricultural products, with the Netherlands, Germany, and France making up the next three. If the american exports are taken off the market due to chaos at home a lot of people around the world will be going hungry.
And if war breaks out in europe, which also seems more and more inevitable for similar reasons, just those top four countries would mean more than $300 billion worth of food taken off of global markets.
If something like that lasts a couple years, a whole lot of humans will be starving and eating eachother…
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-historic-famines-caused-cannibalism.php
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2501517/pictures-human-body-parts-cannibals-russian-famine-1921-1922/
Clumsy corpse-like creatures that will eat you given the chance, that used to be people but aren’t anymore… and its oh, oh so easy to become one of them…
Considering america’s short history has never had a major famine, that today obesity is a larger problem here than going hungry, and many truly believe its either progress or apocalypse(usually so sudden they wouldnt have to actually experience it) if many were unconsciously sensing a massive famine coming it’s easy to see them imagining it as some sort of supernatural horror.
Not that Donovan’s ‘training-wheel tribalism’ isn’t part of it, I KNOW thats part of it.
*I once read that if you totaled up the number of rifles produced by every beligerent country in ww1 AND ww2 the total is still less than what american civilians currently own, and that we have an equal number of shotguns and handguns in addition to that… I can’t remember exactly where I read that but, I believe it. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/2017/01/30/more-on-how-many-guns-are-there-in-america-today/
Greer's response: Jason, hmm as well. I certainly hope not.
radha says:
I think the current interest in Zombies has to do with fear of poor people and of becoming poor or homeless. I see it as role playing of current trends –> a shrinking minority of hyper-clean odorless middle and upper class living in a safe gated communities, and the poor are frightening growing masses of crude and worthless people begging at their doorstep. We learn in zombie shows, there is no shame in killing or tossing aside these dirty monsters. As a life long part time worker with no benefits, I am acutely aware of being treated as disposable. Even as someone who works for idealistic non-profits/natural foods, I have distinctly felt a change in the last few years. I am worried the zombie trope is a prediction of the future for the poor majority.
Greer's response: Radha, that seems uncomfortably plausible to me.
Bogatyr says:
July 21, 2017 at 5:06 am
@radha: “We learn in zombie shows, there is no shame in killing or tossing aside these dirty monsters”.
A friend recently shared a link to a story from 2011, about a Dubai-based company offering cruises off Somalia. The selling point that the customers could outfit themselves with all kinds of advanced weaponry, with which to mow down any pirates who attacked the boat (the yacht was designed to look attractive to pirates, who are of course mostly impoverished fishermen in that part of the world). Who knows, perhaps the business model will spread to other parts of the world? See gadling.com/2011/04/01/dubai-tour-company-offers-pirate-hunting-cruises-off-horn-of-afr/
Also @radha, JMG and others, re: zombies. Like many popular tropes, zombies reflect the fears of their times. The rise in popularity may of course be a response to the rise in the number of the poor. Recently, though, I’ve been wondering whether it isn’t about the dramatic increase in mental illness throughout the Western world. People in all kinds of jobs, professional as well as low–income, are trapped in jobs which give no satisfaction or autonomy, knowing their employer puts no value on them apart from their productivity, but which they don’t dare leave. Add that to social isolation, and life truly becomes a joyless curse. Add to that that – as I’ve seen – if someone suffering from acute stress or depression tries to talk about what they’re experiencing, even long-term friends will avert their gaze and stop calling: they’re afraid of ‘infection’. There are many, many zombies among us today, desiring and/or resenting others who are enjoying the fullness of life which they themselves are denied.
Greer's response: Bogatyr, an interesting hypothesis.
Oilman2 says:
July 21, 2017 at 8:12 pm
@ Bogatyr
I don’t think it is that people are poor or have a crappy job. There are many poor people and many people in crappy jobs and they are not mentally ill. Poverty has been part and parcel of human existence since civilization began. Crappy jobs have always been and will likely always be – but you do get to walk away from a job after you get finished, even if you go back the next day and do it again.
While I don’t think this is an American-centric thing, I do think Americans have a proclivity towards depression, escapism and fantasy.
Americans have some very unrealistic expectations inculcated in their psyche, including many of them amalgamated in the frontier and explorer archetypes. We have been indoctrinated in school, home and via Hollywood with these expectations. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there isn’t much new “under the sun” to explore or conquer – we live on a finite, well known, watery ball in space. As JMG indicated, we have been heavily brow beaten into believing in self reliance and independence, which is not always a good thing when facing change and collapse. We do better in social groups, as that is how we evolved and did the entire civilization thing.
Equality is another dead end, as we are not born equal in any sense of the word, other than we are born of sperm and egg and on this planet. One look at the average IQ scores for each country will allay that misconception. One look at the variance in musculature or stature among all populations will further disabuse it. When we toss birthed social status into the mix, innate equality is decimated as a rational concept. Yet in America, this has been quite literally beaten into the consciousness. You can see this today, run to the extreme, in the social justice warrior tribe.
My gut says there is a lack of spirituality or else a spiritual void that many Americans can’t seem to fill. Many have abandoned western religion and adopted the religion of atheism. Others espouse Christianity and yet are disenchanted in the extreme with the church being just another business model. Most are agnostic, and people living and thriving in agnosticism are also completely materialistic, as that is what is left when you do not believe in anything.
I think mental illness, drug dependence, fantasy escapism, sexual addiction and many other ills can be laid at the feet of agnosticism and/or atheism. If you believe in nothing more than what is in front of you, then you are left with the material world only.
I am not trying to offend anyone, or to hold up any religious belief. What I see is that without any belief in something other than the immediate physical world, then you are left with one thing – the physical world. And that is materialism.
I don’t think that is working out so well for humanity. And that may be why Americans are having such a tough time. Unrealistic expectations, no faith in anything or faith collapsing as they realize their religion is actually a business. And now their world is revealed to be made predominantly of bovine excrement every time they read or hear any news. I would say that could drive a person to drink or edge over into some aberrant behavior, if that is all one has in their world.
dropBear says:
July 21, 2017 at 11:16 pm
this is most interesting.
It would seem that in the past the combination of dominant archtypes first manifested itself in pop culture.
I wonder if the current wave of dreadfully boring and formulaic zombie and vampire novels and films
and the obsession with death in low brow music like a lot of heavy metal, have anything to say about our future.
Can’t wait to find out where you will take us with this series of posts.
Greer's response: DropBear, my take on zombies, for what it’s worth, is that they may have already peaked, On consideration, I think they were an expression of the fear the privileged classes had for what has now happened: the working poor lurching out of the economic grave to which neoliberal policies confined them, and shambling to the voting booth. As soon as the Left faces up to the fact that the Trump phenomenon was in fact a backlash against policies they supported — offshoring and automation of jobs, mass immigration to force down wages, not to mention the endless sneering putdowns the privileged 20% direct toward the people whose lives they’ve embittered — then it won’t be necessary to fantasize about zombies any more. (My guess is that that’ll happen in 2021, after the Dems go down to another self-inflicted electoral defeat and Trump begins his second term.)
My comments on Horror movie legislation:
"These are the people who would survive a zombie apocalypse -- they wouldn't even qualify as snacks." Only if it's full of George Romero zombies who want brains. If those zombies ran into them, they'd walk in the other direction. If they're Walking Dead zombies, they don't care. They just want the flesh and these people would be among the first to die.
"I wonder if zombies can be poisoned?" The original Haitian zombies probably got that way by being poisoned. There is evidence that blowfish/pufferfish toxin can put people into comas that look like death, but that people can revive from with nerve damage. Add a belief about zombies, and someone so poisoned might believe they died and came back as a zombie. That's not really an answer to your question, as we're dealing with American science-fiction/horror zombies, not the original Haitian variety.
The answer is most likely not. It would only work with the zombies that never died before changing, like the ones in "World War Z," "28 Days Later," and "I am Legend." Those are alive but transformed by the disease agent, not undead. Poison would likely work on them, just not fast enough (those are all fast zombies, too). The ones that died first, like in "The Walking Dead," are almost certainly immune. That's one advantage that slow zombies have over fast ones.
Yes, I know too much about zombies.
Infidel 753: Pinku: Well, it's nice to have the testimony of an expert.:-)
My comments to Men Unlike Gods.
Me: Steve T asked "On archetypes that emerge in the fantasies of a civilization– What do you make of the ridiculous popularity of the Army of the Dead/Zombie Apocalypse archetype?" That's a topic that popped up at least twice on the old blog. I saved the comment threads on the zombie apocalypse in two posts on my blog. I summarized most of the reasons in Zombies meet preppers on 'Fear the Walking Dead' Season 3: "the rural-urban disconnect, the fear of urban hordes ravaging the countryside, a lack of faith in progress, a not so subtle racism, and a desire to shoot their fellow Americans." I almost wonder if the producers and writers read those two blog entries of mine for inspiration.
Greer: Vince, thanks for this. I find zombies dreary beyond words, so am probably the last person to ask why they’re popular!
Me: You're welcome. You may find the American media conception of zombies boring, but I was converted years ago to paying attention to the phenomenon, enough that I have an entire category of posts devoted to the zombie apocalypse on my blog. Your readers seem to be interested in the topic, too. Just like the two other times I documented conversations in your comments section, once the subject came up, your readers ran with it. I am very tempted to respond to them, but I think I will learn more by reading (listening) than I will by typing (talking). In particular, the connections to poverty and famine are new ones to me. Instead, I will merely note that the person most responsible for the idea of the zombie apocalypse, George Romero, died on Sunday. May he rest in peace and not rise from the dead to eat us.
Greer: Vince, oh, I know. I just find them so very dull! I was amused by the response to George Romero’s passing, though. It was reminiscent of what happened when Christopher Lee died — I heard a lot of jokes about how he’d be back from the grave in no time flat, having done so all those times before…
Me: I can see why people would make those jokes about Christopher Lee, but my friends were hoping that his war record would finally be unsealed so they could find out all the operations against the Axis in which he participated. No such luck -- still a secret.
Changing the subject, all this talk of Wotan reminds me that he's been appearing in American popular entertainment first as Odin in the Marvel Thor movies and most recently as Mr. Wednesday in Neil Gaiman's "American Gods." The latter is more germane to the discussion here, as Mr. Wednesday is organizing the Old Gods (not the ones of Lovecraft) such as Anansi, Czernobog, Anubis, Thoth, Eostre, and Loki to fight the New Gods of Media, Technology, and The Market for supremacy. That might make for a useful metaphor. I expect that, as "an eccentric with a taste for old things" as well as someone seeking a nature-centered spirituality, you might sympathize with the Old Gods in their struggle against human creations turned into deities. On the other hand, the New Gods might just fade away when the civilization that supports them collapses.
Greer: Vincelamb, the old gods have seen all of this before. They’ve watched Roman emperors declare themselves divine and the Empire immortal, and smiled to see sheep grazing in a pasture that used to be the forum. The “new gods” are not gods but idols, empty images meant to reflect humanity’s supposed omnipotence back at us for our entertainment, and as they sit there grinning idiotically at the ruins of our civilization, the old gods will smile again and continue their timeless lordship…
Jason says:
July 20, 2017 at 5:16 pm
“Watch the dreams and fantasies of a society and you can catch the foreshadowings of its future…”
Regarding the popularity of the zombie genre, I’ve long thought it was due to the ease of life in modern america combined with the post-war morality that made it wrong to think of anyone as ‘the other'(except nazis I suppose). Jack Donovan wrote an essay that captured my thinking on it rather well.
http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2012/07/zompocalypse-now/
After reading this post though, and that painting from 1889… What if the popularity of the zombie genre has a much more straight forward meaning?
If america cracks up like Yugoslavia, which seems more and more inevitable as time goes on, and the fighting rages on for several years(which, considering how heavily armed we are thats more than possible*), that would cause a severe famine, and not just here in the states either.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the US is the top exporter of agricultural products, with the Netherlands, Germany, and France making up the next three. If the american exports are taken off the market due to chaos at home a lot of people around the world will be going hungry.
And if war breaks out in europe, which also seems more and more inevitable for similar reasons, just those top four countries would mean more than $300 billion worth of food taken off of global markets.
If something like that lasts a couple years, a whole lot of humans will be starving and eating eachother…
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-historic-famines-caused-cannibalism.php
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2501517/pictures-human-body-parts-cannibals-russian-famine-1921-1922/
Clumsy corpse-like creatures that will eat you given the chance, that used to be people but aren’t anymore… and its oh, oh so easy to become one of them…
Considering america’s short history has never had a major famine, that today obesity is a larger problem here than going hungry, and many truly believe its either progress or apocalypse(usually so sudden they wouldnt have to actually experience it) if many were unconsciously sensing a massive famine coming it’s easy to see them imagining it as some sort of supernatural horror.
Not that Donovan’s ‘training-wheel tribalism’ isn’t part of it, I KNOW thats part of it.
*I once read that if you totaled up the number of rifles produced by every beligerent country in ww1 AND ww2 the total is still less than what american civilians currently own, and that we have an equal number of shotguns and handguns in addition to that… I can’t remember exactly where I read that but, I believe it. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/2017/01/30/more-on-how-many-guns-are-there-in-america-today/
Greer's response: Jason, hmm as well. I certainly hope not.
radha says:
I think the current interest in Zombies has to do with fear of poor people and of becoming poor or homeless. I see it as role playing of current trends –> a shrinking minority of hyper-clean odorless middle and upper class living in a safe gated communities, and the poor are frightening growing masses of crude and worthless people begging at their doorstep. We learn in zombie shows, there is no shame in killing or tossing aside these dirty monsters. As a life long part time worker with no benefits, I am acutely aware of being treated as disposable. Even as someone who works for idealistic non-profits/natural foods, I have distinctly felt a change in the last few years. I am worried the zombie trope is a prediction of the future for the poor majority.
Greer's response: Radha, that seems uncomfortably plausible to me.
Bogatyr says:
July 21, 2017 at 5:06 am
@radha: “We learn in zombie shows, there is no shame in killing or tossing aside these dirty monsters”.
A friend recently shared a link to a story from 2011, about a Dubai-based company offering cruises off Somalia. The selling point that the customers could outfit themselves with all kinds of advanced weaponry, with which to mow down any pirates who attacked the boat (the yacht was designed to look attractive to pirates, who are of course mostly impoverished fishermen in that part of the world). Who knows, perhaps the business model will spread to other parts of the world? See gadling.com/2011/04/01/dubai-tour-company-offers-pirate-hunting-cruises-off-horn-of-afr/
Also @radha, JMG and others, re: zombies. Like many popular tropes, zombies reflect the fears of their times. The rise in popularity may of course be a response to the rise in the number of the poor. Recently, though, I’ve been wondering whether it isn’t about the dramatic increase in mental illness throughout the Western world. People in all kinds of jobs, professional as well as low–income, are trapped in jobs which give no satisfaction or autonomy, knowing their employer puts no value on them apart from their productivity, but which they don’t dare leave. Add that to social isolation, and life truly becomes a joyless curse. Add to that that – as I’ve seen – if someone suffering from acute stress or depression tries to talk about what they’re experiencing, even long-term friends will avert their gaze and stop calling: they’re afraid of ‘infection’. There are many, many zombies among us today, desiring and/or resenting others who are enjoying the fullness of life which they themselves are denied.
Greer's response: Bogatyr, an interesting hypothesis.
Oilman2 says:
July 21, 2017 at 8:12 pm
@ Bogatyr
I don’t think it is that people are poor or have a crappy job. There are many poor people and many people in crappy jobs and they are not mentally ill. Poverty has been part and parcel of human existence since civilization began. Crappy jobs have always been and will likely always be – but you do get to walk away from a job after you get finished, even if you go back the next day and do it again.
While I don’t think this is an American-centric thing, I do think Americans have a proclivity towards depression, escapism and fantasy.
Americans have some very unrealistic expectations inculcated in their psyche, including many of them amalgamated in the frontier and explorer archetypes. We have been indoctrinated in school, home and via Hollywood with these expectations. Unfortunately, we live in a world where there isn’t much new “under the sun” to explore or conquer – we live on a finite, well known, watery ball in space. As JMG indicated, we have been heavily brow beaten into believing in self reliance and independence, which is not always a good thing when facing change and collapse. We do better in social groups, as that is how we evolved and did the entire civilization thing.
Equality is another dead end, as we are not born equal in any sense of the word, other than we are born of sperm and egg and on this planet. One look at the average IQ scores for each country will allay that misconception. One look at the variance in musculature or stature among all populations will further disabuse it. When we toss birthed social status into the mix, innate equality is decimated as a rational concept. Yet in America, this has been quite literally beaten into the consciousness. You can see this today, run to the extreme, in the social justice warrior tribe.
My gut says there is a lack of spirituality or else a spiritual void that many Americans can’t seem to fill. Many have abandoned western religion and adopted the religion of atheism. Others espouse Christianity and yet are disenchanted in the extreme with the church being just another business model. Most are agnostic, and people living and thriving in agnosticism are also completely materialistic, as that is what is left when you do not believe in anything.
I think mental illness, drug dependence, fantasy escapism, sexual addiction and many other ills can be laid at the feet of agnosticism and/or atheism. If you believe in nothing more than what is in front of you, then you are left with the material world only.
I am not trying to offend anyone, or to hold up any religious belief. What I see is that without any belief in something other than the immediate physical world, then you are left with one thing – the physical world. And that is materialism.
I don’t think that is working out so well for humanity. And that may be why Americans are having such a tough time. Unrealistic expectations, no faith in anything or faith collapsing as they realize their religion is actually a business. And now their world is revealed to be made predominantly of bovine excrement every time they read or hear any news. I would say that could drive a person to drink or edge over into some aberrant behavior, if that is all one has in their world.
dropBear says:
July 21, 2017 at 11:16 pm
this is most interesting.
It would seem that in the past the combination of dominant archtypes first manifested itself in pop culture.
I wonder if the current wave of dreadfully boring and formulaic zombie and vampire novels and films
and the obsession with death in low brow music like a lot of heavy metal, have anything to say about our future.
Can’t wait to find out where you will take us with this series of posts.
Greer's response: DropBear, my take on zombies, for what it’s worth, is that they may have already peaked, On consideration, I think they were an expression of the fear the privileged classes had for what has now happened: the working poor lurching out of the economic grave to which neoliberal policies confined them, and shambling to the voting booth. As soon as the Left faces up to the fact that the Trump phenomenon was in fact a backlash against policies they supported — offshoring and automation of jobs, mass immigration to force down wages, not to mention the endless sneering putdowns the privileged 20% direct toward the people whose lives they’ve embittered — then it won’t be necessary to fantasize about zombies any more. (My guess is that that’ll happen in 2021, after the Dems go down to another self-inflicted electoral defeat and Trump begins his second term.)
My comments on Horror movie legislation:
"These are the people who would survive a zombie apocalypse -- they wouldn't even qualify as snacks." Only if it's full of George Romero zombies who want brains. If those zombies ran into them, they'd walk in the other direction. If they're Walking Dead zombies, they don't care. They just want the flesh and these people would be among the first to die.
"I wonder if zombies can be poisoned?" The original Haitian zombies probably got that way by being poisoned. There is evidence that blowfish/pufferfish toxin can put people into comas that look like death, but that people can revive from with nerve damage. Add a belief about zombies, and someone so poisoned might believe they died and came back as a zombie. That's not really an answer to your question, as we're dealing with American science-fiction/horror zombies, not the original Haitian variety.
The answer is most likely not. It would only work with the zombies that never died before changing, like the ones in "World War Z," "28 Days Later," and "I am Legend." Those are alive but transformed by the disease agent, not undead. Poison would likely work on them, just not fast enough (those are all fast zombies, too). The ones that died first, like in "The Walking Dead," are almost certainly immune. That's one advantage that slow zombies have over fast ones.
Yes, I know too much about zombies.
Infidel 753: Pinku: Well, it's nice to have the testimony of an expert.:-)
